Shush: you musn't go around questioning our 21st century version of what we read in the Bible: how on earth is Trump going to rule the world if we challenge it? Orthodoxy is everything.
I would be curious as to how you would react to Richard Rohr's claim when he says "Christ is not Jesus’ last name…. Jesus is the historical man of Nazareth who walked this earth, and the Christ is the great archetypical identity that is put on Jesus, the one who leads us to the Father. Both identities are true: Our faith as Christians is in Jesus Christ, the historical man Jesus and the cosmic Christ.” So we can say “The Gospels thus lead us both to faith in the Jesus who lived in our history and to faith in the eternally risen Christ, who is still teaching and still hidden within his people.”
Taking Rohr's perspective, I would argue that the synoptic gospels tell the Jesus story. John's gospel introduces us to the cosmic Christ. The cosmic Christ can claim that he and God are one. Jesus can not.
Thank you for the courage to continue sharing your experience and insights regarding Jesus. In gaining a deeper understanding of who He was — and IS — we have an ever-deepening opportunity to experience “the peace that passeth all understanding”. With a bit of gumption and grace, we each can become a healing presence in the world. I’m
grateful for your Presence here.
Although I continue to derive benefits from the insights and practices of other religious traditions in my life ( IMHO, God the Father/Mother of All has been gracious enough to not restrict Herself/ Himself to one tribe at one single point in history), I’m human being who traces his lineage through his maternal link to Judaism, and paternal link through the Christianity of the Pilgrims.
Although, my initial experiences of the Sacred Oneness came through the Hippie Pearly Gate” — which was laced with Eastern Mystical energy and certain medicinal herbs — How could I not embrace Jesus? His energy within my bones and throughout and beyond all space and time. I’m grateful that we can attune ourselves to the living energy of this masterful Homeboy in our meditations and prayers. He had the courage to speak Truth to power even when he knew that they’d string him up for defying the powers to be. I only pray that I can continue to trust in his teachings and his Presence in the spiritual dimension of Being. As best I can sense it, Jesus is being continually Resurrected in the One Love which is the source, sustenance, and destination of All Life.
Again, thanks for the Good Word/ Works Brother. 🙏❤️
You write, “And let's not forget—had Jesus gone around claiming to be God, he'd have been stoned to death for blasphemy faster than you can say "Leviticus." Leviticus 24:16 lays out the punishment for blasphemy: stoning. It’s the death Stephen would endure in Acts 7.”
Which is exactly what happened as recorded at John 10:31-33: “Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Saying. "I have shown you many good works from the Father" is still not proclaiming to BE God, so it's NOT exactly what happened. (Sorry for the rain on your parade.)
You're right to point out that passage from John. However, many biblical scholars view John's Gospel differently from the Synoptics (Matthew, Mark, and Luke). John was likely written around 90-100 CE, decades after Jesus' death and the other Gospels. It often reflects later theological developments rather than preserving Jesus' exact words.
The high Christology in John, where Jesus makes explicit claims to divinity, doesn't appear in the earlier Synoptic Gospels. Most historians see this as John's interpretation of Jesus rather than a verbatim account. The Synoptics, while still not exact transcripts, are generally considered closer to the historical Jesus' actual teachings.
This doesn't negate John's spiritual value, but it does mean we should be cautious about using it as a historical source for Jesus' precise words or how his contemporaries understood him. It's a complex topic that scholars continue to debate and explore.
And these? Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 11:27. Mark 14:61-65.
Here's a thought: I put out a weekly Bible study, and actually based the current 4-week series on your previous post here, where you wrote, "'But the actual Jesus never claimed to be God,' and in the follow-on discussion, this person stated, 'Some things are more true or less true, depending on the evidence we have to claim the veracity of a statement.'” I tried to find an email for you to share that study (which looks at the 3 primary categories of truth), but couldn't. If you like, I'd be happy to send it to you, My email is: chrishogg_linkedin@yahoo.com
And if anyone else in this thread or reading along would like the study, just ask.
The Gospel of Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70, Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90, and John AD 90–110.. So none of them was contemporary. And they were written in Greek, not Aramaic. And yes I know their oral tradition is stronger, but to argue that all the gospels are word for word literal accounts of Jesus's words is a huge leap of faith
Appreciate your observation about a "huge leap of faith." And in fact, everything we read in the Bible, every claim, every account, every statement requires a "leap of faith," whether small or huge (which the 4-part Bible study I mentioned addresses).
Perhaps the most well-known verse in the Bible is John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life." This verse touches on faith, on belief ... not on knowing, or proving. This is confirmed at Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." And an example of it appears at John 11:25-27: "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?' 'Yes, Lord,' she replied, 'I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.'”
I love what you are doing Andrew! God gave us a brain and we should use it. In no way do I think you have taken anything away from Christ Our Savior 🙏
Thank you Richard! Glad you're here. ❤️
Shush: you musn't go around questioning our 21st century version of what we read in the Bible: how on earth is Trump going to rule the world if we challenge it? Orthodoxy is everything.
I would be curious as to how you would react to Richard Rohr's claim when he says "Christ is not Jesus’ last name…. Jesus is the historical man of Nazareth who walked this earth, and the Christ is the great archetypical identity that is put on Jesus, the one who leads us to the Father. Both identities are true: Our faith as Christians is in Jesus Christ, the historical man Jesus and the cosmic Christ.” So we can say “The Gospels thus lead us both to faith in the Jesus who lived in our history and to faith in the eternally risen Christ, who is still teaching and still hidden within his people.”
Taking Rohr's perspective, I would argue that the synoptic gospels tell the Jesus story. John's gospel introduces us to the cosmic Christ. The cosmic Christ can claim that he and God are one. Jesus can not.
Thank you for the courage to continue sharing your experience and insights regarding Jesus. In gaining a deeper understanding of who He was — and IS — we have an ever-deepening opportunity to experience “the peace that passeth all understanding”. With a bit of gumption and grace, we each can become a healing presence in the world. I’m
grateful for your Presence here.
Although I continue to derive benefits from the insights and practices of other religious traditions in my life ( IMHO, God the Father/Mother of All has been gracious enough to not restrict Herself/ Himself to one tribe at one single point in history), I’m human being who traces his lineage through his maternal link to Judaism, and paternal link through the Christianity of the Pilgrims.
Although, my initial experiences of the Sacred Oneness came through the Hippie Pearly Gate” — which was laced with Eastern Mystical energy and certain medicinal herbs — How could I not embrace Jesus? His energy within my bones and throughout and beyond all space and time. I’m grateful that we can attune ourselves to the living energy of this masterful Homeboy in our meditations and prayers. He had the courage to speak Truth to power even when he knew that they’d string him up for defying the powers to be. I only pray that I can continue to trust in his teachings and his Presence in the spiritual dimension of Being. As best I can sense it, Jesus is being continually Resurrected in the One Love which is the source, sustenance, and destination of All Life.
Again, thanks for the Good Word/ Works Brother. 🙏❤️
You write, “And let's not forget—had Jesus gone around claiming to be God, he'd have been stoned to death for blasphemy faster than you can say "Leviticus." Leviticus 24:16 lays out the punishment for blasphemy: stoning. It’s the death Stephen would endure in Acts 7.”
Which is exactly what happened as recorded at John 10:31-33: “Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Saying. "I have shown you many good works from the Father" is still not proclaiming to BE God, so it's NOT exactly what happened. (Sorry for the rain on your parade.)
You're right to point out that passage from John. However, many biblical scholars view John's Gospel differently from the Synoptics (Matthew, Mark, and Luke). John was likely written around 90-100 CE, decades after Jesus' death and the other Gospels. It often reflects later theological developments rather than preserving Jesus' exact words.
The high Christology in John, where Jesus makes explicit claims to divinity, doesn't appear in the earlier Synoptic Gospels. Most historians see this as John's interpretation of Jesus rather than a verbatim account. The Synoptics, while still not exact transcripts, are generally considered closer to the historical Jesus' actual teachings.
This doesn't negate John's spiritual value, but it does mean we should be cautious about using it as a historical source for Jesus' precise words or how his contemporaries understood him. It's a complex topic that scholars continue to debate and explore.
And these? Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 11:27. Mark 14:61-65.
Here's a thought: I put out a weekly Bible study, and actually based the current 4-week series on your previous post here, where you wrote, "'But the actual Jesus never claimed to be God,' and in the follow-on discussion, this person stated, 'Some things are more true or less true, depending on the evidence we have to claim the veracity of a statement.'” I tried to find an email for you to share that study (which looks at the 3 primary categories of truth), but couldn't. If you like, I'd be happy to send it to you, My email is: chrishogg_linkedin@yahoo.com
And if anyone else in this thread or reading along would like the study, just ask.
The Gospel of Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70, Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90, and John AD 90–110.. So none of them was contemporary. And they were written in Greek, not Aramaic. And yes I know their oral tradition is stronger, but to argue that all the gospels are word for word literal accounts of Jesus's words is a huge leap of faith
Thanks for the reply, Andrew.
Appreciate your observation about a "huge leap of faith." And in fact, everything we read in the Bible, every claim, every account, every statement requires a "leap of faith," whether small or huge (which the 4-part Bible study I mentioned addresses).
Perhaps the most well-known verse in the Bible is John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life." This verse touches on faith, on belief ... not on knowing, or proving. This is confirmed at Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." And an example of it appears at John 11:25-27: "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?' 'Yes, Lord,' she replied, 'I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.'”
Can we prove that Jesus is God? No.
Can we believe that Jesus is God? Yes.